Dr. Ball I am one frustrated fisherman who is fed up with what is being done to sports fishermen. As I understand flounder spawn on the continental shelf in Jan. & Feb and the draggers net flonder during those time frames, What and who has responceability to assure that draggers are not throwing small flounder back as by catch? Arn't these fish still full of spawn and the ones kept also? What prevents draggers from selling their catch to southern states and visa versa? How is their quota measured to assure there are no overages and if there are overages what is done to penalize them? I have fished flounder for over 30 years and seen the fishery deteriorate since draggers really started to get into the fishing ,sure we might be getting more larger fish at times but I maintain that we are not seeing the quanities that we use to catch both large and small.I also get angry when I see those #*#*#* spotter planes flying the bay. It's enough to make a grown man cry.
Thanks for your input and comments
Ron Pieta




Ron: Julie sent me your e-mail and I will do what I can to reply:

The way draggers operate their nets and the large numbers of fish that are caught, National Marine Service,(NMFS) a sub division of National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration(NOAA) allows most of the catch that comes aboard in the "cod-end" of the net to be retained and delivered to the dock as part of their commercial quota. I guess fish smaller than 14 inches are able to squeeze through the sides of the net as it is dragged along the bottom. But those that are trapped , come aboard dead and squashed. To prevent all those fish that are under the recreational size limits from becoming by-catch discards, the commercials are allowed to keep them and those smaller fish also count against the NMFS commercial quotas for each quarter.

NMFS from time to time have college educated , qualified, marine scientists serving aboard trawlers as observers to record other species that are showing up in the nets and are being discarded....or kept to be sold as bycatch.

There is always a debate going on about whether fish should be killed before they spawn or after they spawn. More important that the actually do spawn one or more times before they are killed. It is estimated that for the first spawn flounder are approximately 14 inches long..so it is believed that a 14 inch flounder may have already spawned. The total allowable commercial catch is measured in pounds of fish...so to the commercial dragger, size is unimportant.

Each state has a recreational quota and a commercial quota determined by scientists at NMFS and The Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission(ASMFC)...NMFS determines , by interpreting the Magnusson Stevens laws and the reported catch, both commercial (by each State, verified by the purchasing dealers), and the statistical estimates of the annual recreational catch made by a for-profit corporation which is hired to make the Marine Recreational Fishing Statistical Survey (MRFSS) what each State will be allowed to be landed, both commercial and recreational. Commercial trawlers are continually in contact with the state into which they plan to offload the flounder catch. That is required because the commercial quota is small by historical catch estimates and the number of trawlers, using sophisticated methods can reach a quarterly commercial quota sometimes in just a few days. Also if , for instance, the North Carolina trawlers cannot return to NC ports(Wanchese) because of a storm or other problem, NC managers will transfer part of their state-wide NMFS allocation to Virginia so that the NC based vessel, or vessels can unload their cargo. The NC landing does not post against the allowable VA commercial landings. The amount is deducted from what is allowed in NC. Each trawler fishing legally for flounder and planning to land fish into VA ports, must telephone in before they arrive so that Marine Patrol officers can be at the dock when they arrive to offload. The question comes up: "could they unload in the middle of the night?"...no, the commercial docks do not allow offloading after regular work hours unless some special arrangements are made. The commercial docks must have a rather large work force available to offload a boatload of commercially caught flounder. The dock owner is unwilling to bring his crew in after hours...so the trawler must wait til the dockmaster is open, ready to unload...as the patrol officer can then arrive on his regular work hours to inspect the landings.

The trawler keeps meticulous written documentation of his catch as does the dock(Packing house) which unloads the catch..Virginia Marine Resource staff compare the books on the vessel with the books kept and reported to VMRC. VMRC is always on the look out for subtle differences in the reported landings.

When commercial catch surpasses an allocation for the year exceed the allotment, those overages are subtracted from the catches for the next year...which could possibly reduce the allocation...but because the NMFS and VMRC know month to month the exact commercial catch, there is rarely an overage to subtract. The recreational catch is estimated and sometime it takes the ASMFC until mid February to get their act together and dictate to each state what their quota will be...Of course that is near the beginning of the recreational fishing season and there must be two or three , rapid-fire , meetings with a recreationally appointed committee to come up with some suggested options to meet the VA recreational quota...a final (often controversial)option must be decided on by VMRC commissioners after several public hearings(which require 30 day public notices)...it is quite a circus getting recreational flounder regulations approved by the beginning of the recreational season. (all of which has been determined by a few hired statistical surveyors , whose results are fed into a computer model--small errors end up being huge factors in the program--a totally unacceptable outcome)!!

NMFS determines what the total allowable pounds of flounder that can be killed by recreational(MRFSS) and commercial anglers(required commercial reports). Based on some outdated formula , the allowance is divided 60% to commercials,. and 40% to recreationals. NMFS has promised to reconsider that allocation based on the complaints of politically involved recreational anglers who point out the much greater economic value of a few flounder to the recreational fishing industry than the few dollars they are worth if caught commercially. It may be a cold day in Hell when we see that arbitrary allocation changed to an equal split or even one the reverse: 60% recreational, 40% Commercial.

Of the 40 percent that is allocated to recreationals, that is then divided up by the 13 or so Atlantic States that fish for summer flounder...I believe VA gets approx 23% of the total recreational allocation...that amount is third highest, with NY and NJ getting a few percentage points higher( I believe)..all other states get less than VA. There is a move to change the way the recreations catch is allocated..NY and NJ , believe that they should get more because they have such a large population...they want the split not historically applied, but changed to reflect their great numbers of recreational anglers that fish for summer flounder. So far VA has blocked any change...

Some 10+ years ago when Congress enacted the Magnusun Stevens Act...NMFS was given the job of rebuilding all fisheries in a pre-determined time frame , to an estimated number of free swimming fish. For Flounder, the managers selected anamount that was supposed to be the estimated summer flounder population in 1930....my guess is something like 220 metric tons. So they began with a goal of rebuilding flounder, then very depressed by unregulated commercial draggers. All now recognized that the amount selected: 220 metric tons(?) may have been an incorrect guess and may never be attainable...but the figure is somewhat cast in stone and the re-authorization of the MS Act in 2006 moved the date out a little to Dec. 31, 2012. So , by law, fishing managers , must set annual catch quotas, both commercial and recreational, annually with a 75% probability that adhering to those regulations, the 220 metric tons will be attained by Dec 31, 2112 , and then the fishery can be declared as "recovered'...problem is we will never reach 220 MT, as for some reason all those larger flounder we are releasing , are in fact, spawning, the baby flounder are born, but they never survive ...that has been going on for the last three years...good spawn ,,poor recruitment....the small fish are not growing up to fill out the biomass ...we just keep moving the minimum up , reducing the catch(both commercial and recreational--all in the same situation)...those still swimming are getting larger...where does it end? Probably when we get to 2010 and they have not reached the suggested biomass...there will be a total moratorium on catching Atlantic Summer Flounder for a few years until the managers at NMFS can figure out how to get us out of the mess we will be in . They will still be trying to get the numbers up before the MS deadline on Dec 31, 1012.

Flounder are recovering and the managers are doing a decent job of keeping the spawning biomass swimming out there healthy and expanding, but the looming false deadline is clouding everyone's thinking about flounder management. Congress has help the fishery, but it has also put the managers and the flounder fishery in a difficult situation.

But I have one other final statement: We went through this same thing with Striped Bass...a little different scenario...but they came back dramatically , once the (commercial) fishing pressure was off for five years...When NMFS declared Striped Bass "recovered"..it became clear that NMFS, ASMFC nor any state managers had any idea how to manage a "recovered" species. They did a great job of managing the BAss recovery(mainly by shutting it down for fiver years)...but SB management is in total disarray at present.

Weakfish are still being caught by commercial fishermen using sophisticated gear...but their numbers have declined tothe point that recreationals report no catches...ASMFC is well aware of the inaccurate weakfish computer problems and MRFSS statistical errors on weakfish, but ASMFC managers are wringing their hands about what to do . ( I have advised all fishing clubs to do the following): I, personally, have suggested to Jack Travelstead, to please, PLEASE, goto the ASMFC meetings with a request that a complete moratorium be placed on commercial and recreational catch of weakfish all along the Atlantic.. Their numbers may already too low to manage a come back.

You mentioned that you become sick at seeing the spotter planes...there are many ill recreational fishermen over the Omega Protein Corporation using spotter planes to deplete our Chesapeake Bay of Menhaden , an important filter feeder in the dirty Chesapeake and an important forage fish for all other important species. That fishery has nothing to do with the size or abundance of summer flounder, except that flounder [ primary diet when they reach adult hood is fish....if there are no menhaden (because of the industrial harvest of menhaden inside Ches Bay), then who is to say that cannibalistic larger flounder are not consuming the baby flounder that are not reaching maturity?

an interesting sidenote: All Atlantic states prohibit the industrial harvest of Menhaden with the exception of North Carolina and Virginia...but I have been informed that NC is considering a prohibition there also. Here in Virginia, politicians are guilty of protecting the Menhaden industry...all other states protect the fish!!!

I have tried to answer some of your questions..

I admire you for stepping forward and asking for an explanation...if every recreational angler would step up to the plate ...we would have a few different state delegates, about three new Congressmen(women) and have some profound changes in the make-up of the Virginia Marine Resource Commission(appointed by the governor)...a governor now influenced by self-serving, commercial fishing interests..

I suggest you follow discussions on Tidalfish.Com fishing board and the political and policy board also. Decide to attend ASMFC And VMRC scoping and management meetings. There is a lot of very interesting influences that show up when decisions are to be made.

I just made a prediction: I believe that Omega Protein Corp will soon have the governor of Va appoint a high officer (LYLE JETT) of Omega Protein to position on the VA marine Resource Commission....we may soon have a fox watching the chickenhouse.

Hope you and Julie enjoy my lengthy letter.


Bob Allen, PSWSFA

VA Council of Angling Clubs