Heard both sides, but was hoping someone could expand. I have heard that some of us eat fish from the hot ditch and others do not. Those that do not make the case that the water temps could assumedly push the bacteria levels too high. I grew up on the Potomac striper fishing since I could hold a pole. For as long as I remember the focus was just moderation. It seemed like there was always some sort of a warning regarding the bacteria levels in the fish... but you could still eat them, just in moderation. Hopefully the same holds true here. I will surely take the moderate approach and eat some "hot ditch" fish until I have a strong enough case built against it, which I was hoping some of you guys could help me with.

This subject has been discussed here numerous times in the past. The most recent discussion convinced me through scientific evidence that it's probably OK to eat fish from the Hot Ditch. It's still a pretty nasty place if you ask me. I may trophy fish there this year because I have yet to catch a citation Speckled Trout. Otherwise, I'm a Chesapeake Bay guy.

I fish there and eat fish out of there have been doing it for many years im ok and so is my family. The fact is water temps are up in 70-80 area on a good day but the water is constantly changes and its not realy that dirty. Think about this the place that most people trophy fish for specks the water temps average the 50s and thousands of people swim there when the temps are 80-100. Im also one those people and my 3 yr old son and I wouldnt never put him in harms way. The thing to do is just like in the bay look the fish over make sure it dont have any sores and the eyes are clear not cloudy. good luck on your paper fish there are plenty of them in there.

I have the same question and have not eat fish out of there in the past.

But do you think the water is really that bad? My understanding is it's black because of the run off from the Dismal Swamp and other foliage. Further down river towards Norfolk probably has a lot of industrial run off - but I'm not sure about Hot Ditch and above. I would like to see some sort of analysis of the water from there.

The fish that winter over there are elsewhere the rest of the year.

I think this is a good topic for discusions. I grew up in Charleston, SC. People always warned us about eating fish from certain areas due to shipyards and navy bases. I never ever let that stop me and my family. Like JIMBOB said, look the fish over and check it out. I have thrown several fish back over the years, becuase of bad sores or peristies. They can still reproduce healthy fish.

As for the hot ditch, I can't speak of. You here that there is a red tide, there is mercury in the water, or there is bacteria in the water. This doesn't really mean that the fish are effected and will pass these things to you. Fish have a protectinve slime that helps filter out all this junk. Do you eat the slime? No When you release a fish, don't you try not to handle it too much? yes. This is to protect the fishes imune system. Furthermore, typically all fish are migratory, to some extent. They are in and out of areas on a regular basis. Is it becuase of water temps, bacteria, or just becuase it's time to move on. Typically fish migrate to eat, simply said, they follow the bait. These are just some ideas I have on this subject. I haven't fished the hot ditch yet, as I've only live in VA a year now. I plan to hit it this year a few times. Specs are one of my favorite to eat. If they look good when I put them in the cooler or taking pictures, they will surely look better in the frying pan. My two shinny pennies!

On a different note: The hot ditch. I have asked before some some insire on the location and just where to fish it. Iv'e gotten bits and pieces on the location. Now one has actually said, put in here, go to here, and fish this bank. Any insite??????

Thanks in advance and to the king, hope this shares some insite. no matter where you go fishing, someone is always going to say something about eating the fish.

Where is the Hot Ditch? Is it up the Eliz. River?

The Elizabeth River was recently ranked as the 3rd most polluted river in the country. The river is tidal, in that the vast majority of the water comes up the river from the direction of the Bay. The primary pollutants include heavy metals, creasote, PCB's PAH's and TBT. TBT is from ship bottom paint. It is so toxic that nothing grows on surfaces painted with it. For years. PCB's come from heat transfer fluids, including electrical transformers. PAH's are another industrial castoff. Creasote came from an abandoned waterfront plant. These pollutants have several things in common. First they all deteriorate very slowly. Second, they accumulate in your body fat over your lifetime. Third, at the concentrations found in the river water (parts per million or billion) they don't make you sick imediately. Or tomorrow or next year. You just die of cancer one day. Your kid won't complain about feeling bad, he or she just can't have their own children one day. You folks really need to educate yourselves about what's out there and how it can affect you, especially where consumption of fish is concerned. I would be real careful about feeding my child fish caught in the Elizabeth River or any of it's tributaries. It's just not worth the risk. But that's my opinion, I could be wrong. Please excuse the rant.

Sounds pretty bad.. And it does make sense that polutants would come up river with the tide.

To get to hot ditch you can launch by the Jordan River bridge (on the Southern Branch of the Elizabeth) and go up river or launch at the park in Great Bridge by the IntraCoastal Waterway lock and go down river. Hot ditch is by the power plant that you can see from the I-64 Hi Rise. The power plant discharge keeps the water warm through the winter. At times in the winter you can catch a pretty big variety of fish including trout, striper, and puppy drum.

Now it's getting interesting. I know I didn't start the conversation, but thanks for all the input. I have never fished in that area before. Always wanted to, but just haven't yet. Now knowing that it is the most poluted in the nation. I may think twice about what I consume in the area. However, I pose another question. Since most of these fish are migratory and some travel hundreds of miles (proven by the tegging and release program), how do you know where the fish you caught have been. There is a very likely chance that you could catch something out at the CBBT that was spawned up there or goes back there every winter due to water temps.

Last year there was a red tide ove most of the Chesapeake tributaries. I would like to know how many people stopped eating fish last year from those areas. Are we safe for any fish? When we buy fish in the market, who's to say where those came from or what kind of waters they came from? This is just another question. I think we all do need to be smart about this, but I also don't think we need to worry about every little thing. Heck, non-smokers that are extreme athelets get lung cancer. Some things are inevitable and you just don't have control. The best we can do is just pay attention to what we throw into our coolers and don't eat sushi. Cook what ever you eat well.

I hope this thread goes on a bit. I'm willing to learn anything new. To all who read this. Please hit the reply button and give us all your thoughts. You may know something that we all don't. Like I said, I didn't even know that this river is the most poluted in the US.

I have been doing some research since my last post. I have found some pretty interesting things. Yes there is light at the end of the tunnel, but precautions do need to be taken. My research took me to the Virgina Public Health page. Here is what I found out and for all it's scary reading the whole document, but if you fish up there you might want to look it up. It basically explains how to be safe.

PUBLIC HEALTH ASSESSMENT
NORFOLK NAVAL SHIPYARD
PORTSMOUTH, VIRGINIA

III. COMMUNITY HEALTH CONCERNS
A community relations plan for NNSY provides guidance for keeping the community informed about site-related activities and involving the community and other interested parties in the decision-making process for selecting remedial alternatives. As part of its effort to update this plan, the Navy interviewed selected local officials, businesses, and residents, as well as representatives of community groups and media outlets, to identify their information needs. Public meetings are held to inform citizens of ongoing remedial activities and to solicit their input. Navy officials have also given community presentations and are available to discuss any concerns that community members have. The public may review site-related documents, including reports and correspondence relating to cleanup activities, at a repository located at the Portsmouth Public Library, 601 Court Street, Portsmouth, VA 23704 (telephone: 757-393-8501).
Through meetings, contact with officials and the public, and our review of site documents, ATSDR identified the following community health concerns:
§ Is it safe to eat seafood from the Elizabeth River?
Since the 1920s, VDH has prohibited harvesting shellfish other than crabs from the Elizabeth River and its tributaries. Although this prohibition was originally based on elevated levels of bacteriologic contamination, concern exists about the potential for bivalve mollusks (including mussels, clams, and oysters)–the type of shellfish to which the prohibition applies–to uptake chemical contaminants (such as metals) that have reached the river from any number of sources (ATSDR 1994; R. Barker, VDH Division of Shellfish Sanitation, personal communication, 2002; Elizabeth River Project n.d.b.). In general, bivalve mollusks would be expected to bioaccumulate some contaminants at higher levels than other types of seafood would because they are filter feeders (i.e., they have a tendency to accumulate pollutants as they pump water and suspended particles through their gills for respiration and feeding) (EPA 1998).
Many sources contribute to contamination in the Elizabeth River and Hampton Roads, including nearby government and private industrial sites as well as other regional and local point and nonpoint sources. Limited fish and crab sampling data have been collected by various institutions. However water, fish, and contaminants tend to migrate throughout a river system, and concentrations of contaminants may change over time. As a result it is difficult to assess the potential health effects for a particular area. As noted previously, several groups are studying the Elizabeth River, and they are expected to issue reports that assess the areas they have studied.
No fishing advisory has been issued for the Elizabeth River and its tributaries; as a prudent measure, people should follow VDH shellfishing prohibitions. VDH and EPA offer general fishing advisories that provide recommendations to inform people about how to select and prepare fish they catch in a manner that reduces potential exposures to some types of contaminants. To better understand prudent measures they can take, people should review these advisories, which can be found on the EPA and VDH Web sites or obtained by contacting the agencies directly. VDH recommendations are available on the Internet at www.vdh.state.va.us/HHControl/fishing_advisories.htm . EPA recommendations are available on the Internet at www.epa.gov/waterscience/fish , which includes a link to A Guide to Healthy Eating of the Fish You Catch, a brochure developed in collaboration with ATSDR.
In December 2000, the Chesapeake Executive Council, consisting of representatives of the government agencies involved with the Chesapeake Bay Program, adopted a "Toxics 2000 Strategy" for reducing, preventing, and assessing chemical contamination in the Chesapeake Bay watershed. According to the Toxics 2000 Strategy, one of the commitments made by CBP partners is to evaluate seafood tissue monitoring and outreach programs. In particular, the partners indicated that by 2002 they planned to evaluate the technical and public outreach components of these programs and recommend any appropriate improvements to ensure that advisories are accurate, understandable, and easily available to the public. By 2004, the partners plan to institute appropriate improvements to the programs, assess major fishing and shellfishing areas, complete risk screenings, identify any specific subpopulations at potential risk, and issue any additional consumption advisories, as appropriate (Chesapeake Executive Council 2000).
In short, a number of agencies and organizations are studying seafood and seafood exposures in the Elizabeth River watershed. As a prudent measure, people should follow all seafood consumption advisories and shellfishing prohibitions issued by federal and state agencies and other collaborative groups. ATSDR notes that in some parts of the Elizabeth River, fish with lesions, tumors, and other abnormalities have been found. These effects may be linked to sediment contamination, particularly from PAHs, which are widespread throughout the river (Army Chesapeake Bay Program 2000; Elizabeth River Project n.d.a.; McCord 2001). Abnormalities, such as these in fish, can result from other causes, however, such as infections or injuries.
§ Is it safe to eat seafood from Paradise Creek?
At this time, we are not certain whether it is safe to eat seafood harvested from Paradise Creek. The Navy is addressing potential sources of Paradise Creek contamination coming from NNSY and collected seafood samples from the creek in 1997. ATSDR contacted EPA, VDEQ, and the Virginia Institute of Marine Science to inquire about the availability of any additional seafood samples collected from Paradise Creek, but none were identified. Navy sampling was conducted near Sites 2 and 3, in support of investigations at these sites. Five mussel samples and three clam samples were analyzed, including one sample of each species collected from upstream of the sites (to provide perspective on "background" levels of contaminants). Originally, the Navy proposed collecting crab samples, but no crabs larger than approximately 1 centimeter were found in the area.
ATSDR evaluated the sampling results and concurs with the Navy's assessment that contaminant levels were not consistently higher in samples collected downstream of the IRP sites than in upstream samples. However, too few samples were collected for ATSDR to draw conclusions about the representativeness of the clam and mussel samples. More importantly, in light of the VDH shellfishing prohibition, people would not be expected to collect or consume bivalve mollusks from Paradise Creek. Because clams and mollusks bioaccumulate contaminants at different rates than other types of seafood, these data do not reveal contaminant levels to which people might be exposed during consumption of crab, fish and other seafood.
During site visits, ATSDR observed crab pots near the mouth of Paradise Creek and signs that people might fish in this area. We were also told that sometimes people fish from the Victory Boulevard bridge, although a posted sign said not to. Thus, ATSDR believes that people sometimes catch fish and crabs in Lower Paradise Creek, particularly near its mouth, that are of sufficient size to be eaten. No information about the extent to which this occurs is currently available.
Fish and crabs are relatively mobile, and substantial tidal flushing occurs in this area. Crabs and fish in Lower Paradise Creek, as well as the water and sediment in which they live, would also be affected by contamination originating outside of NNSY. Any assessments performed by local or regional agencies or organizations of potential exposures to seafood collected from the part of the Southern Branch of the Elizabeth River near the site would also apply to seafood collected in Lower Paradise Creek. People should, to be prudent, follow all seafood consumption advisories and shellfishing prohibitions issued by federal and state agencies (described in the previous section of this document).
What are the Potential Effects Associated With Consumption of Seafood from St. Juliens Creek and the Elizabeth River?
A common community concern questions the safety of eating locally-caught seafood. Because of the variety of military installations, industrial facilities and other potential sources of contamination in the area, some people are concerned that finfish and shellfish in this area may have measurable levels of contaminants in their tissues. ATSDR reviewed the available information to address this concern. The following paragraphs briefly describe ATSDR's evaluation. Because the condition of the waterway may change over time, ATSDR recommends that people review relevant fishing advisories for the areas where they intend to fish.
Since the 1920s, VDH has prohibited harvesting shellfish other than crabs from the Elizabeth River and its tributaries due to high levels of bacteriological contamination (VDH 2002). ATSDR did not identify any data or reports that discuss whether the local communities consume shellfish despite this advisory.
There are no fishing advisories for the Elizabeth River and its tributaries to prohibit or restrict fishing. VDH and EPA offer general fishing advisories that provide recommendations to inform people about how to select and prepare fish they catch in a manner that reduces potential exposures to some types of contaminants. ATSDR recommends that people review these advisories, which can be found on the EPA and VDH Internet sites or obtained by contacting the agencies directly. EPA recommendations are online at http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/fish , and includes a link to Should I Eat The Fish I Catch? A Guide to Healthy Eating of the Fish You Catch, a brochure developed in collaboration with ATSDR. VDH recommendations are online at http://www.vdh.state.va.us/hhcontrol/fishing_advisories.htm .
A number of agencies and organizations are studying seafood and seafood exposures in the Elizabeth River watershed. Some sources suggest that in the Elizabeth River, fish have been found with lesions, tumors, and other abnormalities that could be due to chemical contamination (Elizabeth River Project NDa). However, not all fish lesions are due to chemical contamination. Fish lesions can also be caused by bacterial, fungal or viral infection, parasites, or injury.
ATSDR evaluated fish sampling data from the Virginia Institute of Marine Sciences (VIMS). The sampling area predominately consisted of waterways associated with the James and York Rivers, from the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay and upstream to approximately Williamsburg, VA. Waterways between Norfolk and Virginia Beach, VA and the inland portion of Cape Charles were also represented. The sampling data was gathered between 1997 and 2001. The samples primarily consisted of skin-off fillets of finfish. Results of the evaluation indicate that within the sampled area, there are no health concerns for people who consistently consume one to two 8-oz fish fillets per week from the sampled area. Eating more fish will increase a person's potential exposure to PCBs. All fish consumers, and especially people who routinely consume two or more 8-oz fish fillets per day may want to consider reducing their potential PCB exposure by: 1) selecting the younger, smaller fish of a species (within legal limits), 2) removing the skin, belly fat, and internal organs prior to cooking, 3) baking or broiling the fish fillets, and 4) not eating the fatty juices or drippings.

Interesting article. Looks like it was 6-8 years old. I wonder if there has been anything more recent.

awhile back, the last time this disccussion came up i did a tiny bit of research on the "hot ditch". After emailing a few people, and asking questions here is what i got:

Straight from the Dept of Healths Website:

if that is garbled and you can't see it, go here:
http://www.vdh.state.va.us/epi/publichealt.../JamesRiver.asp
the hot ditch falls under the third section of the James River.

Now this chart only talks about PCBs, so i emailed the Health Dept and they pointed me fo the Dept of Environmental Qualities. this is what they said:

Mr. Kumjian: Fish and shellfish from the Elizabeth River do contain other chemicals, such as heavy metals and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), in addition to the PCBs noted by the Health Department fish consumption advisory. However, only the level of PCBs was high enough to warrant an advisory. Levels of chemicals found in fish are dependent upon the age, size, and species of fish. Although many game fish species (i.e., trout) tend to over winter at the “hot ditch”, they are not resident fish and have spent time in other waters, so it is difficult to determine where the fish picked up the contamination, or what level any individual fish may contain. The advisory recommends no more than two meals/month (8 oz serving per meal) for most species.

so what do you do now? all the fish me and jimbob caught out there last year looked healthy and tasted good too. the health dept does have advisories about the elizabeth river about eating fish, but let me ask you this, how many of you on here eat stripers out of the bay more then twice a month during the fall/spring striper season? they too have an advisory:
http://www.vdh.state.va.us/epi/publichealt.../Chesapeake.asp

i think ultimaly it comes down to your own decision. if anyone has any questions about this, send me a bmail and i can email the guy i spoke with at DEQ and find out more information.

here is some more info i forgot:

Q: I have been eating fish from the advisory area all my life. Will I have adverse health
effects?

A: There are no immediate threats to health from eating fish from the advisory area. Eating
more than the recommended amount of fish does not mean that a person will definitely have
adverse health effects. Recommendations regarding PCBs and fish consumption are not a
measure of threat to health. Instead, they reflect an assessment of the estimated risk of potential
cancer if fish from the same area are consumed frequently over a period of several years. VDH
recommendations are based on laboratory animal studies and assuming the worst possible case
scenario. The actual risk is most likely to be far less. Studies in humans have not shown that
PCBs cause cancer.

Q: What can be done to reduce the health risk from eating fish containing PCBs?

A: PCB levels can be reduced in fish by following these guidelines:
• Remove the skin, fat (from the belly and top of the fish) and internal organs where PCBs
are most likely to accumulate before cooking the fish.
• Cook the fish by broiling, baking, or grilling so that the fat drains away. By letting the fat
drain away, PCBs stored in the fatty tissue of the fish are removed.
• Discard the fats that cook out of the fish.
• Eat smaller, younger fish (within the legal limits). They are less likely to contain harmful
levels of PCBs than larger, older fish.
• Avoid or reduce the amount of fish drippings or broth that are used to flavor the meal.
These drippings may contain higher levels of PCBs.
• Eat less deep fried fish since frying seals PCBs into the fatty tissue.

Q: Is it safe to swim in waters where fish have been shown to have PCB contamination?

A: In general, there is no danger from the water because PCBs are slightly soluble in water and
the contamination is only in the fish and sediment. Therefore, recreational use of waters such as
swimming, skiing, and boating, does not pose a health risk.

Q: Why are certain fish species included in the fish consumption advisory and others are not?

A: Because PCBs are in the sediment at the bottom of rivers, streams and lakes and not in the
water, fish that feed on the bottom (bottom feeders) are most likely to ingest PCBs through the
food chain. Fish accumulate PCBs over a period of time from sediment and the food chain.
Older, larger fish tend to have more PCBs than younger, smaller fish.

All this and more from the VDH:
http://www.vdh.state.va.us/epi/publichealt...visoriesq&a.pdf

There are just too many other places to get fish to eat. Now they might be just as poisoned but I would feel better taking reds and rocks from seawater.

But if you must, I heard that grilling is the best way to get the poisons to fall out of the fish.

When I was a kid we would catch fish right at the docks of a shipyard and then eat them, something I would think about first now.

Eric

People don't think twice about eating fish in restaurants or from the supermarket. They must believe those fish come from the healthy and pristine waters of some far off place, and think you're crazy for eating fish from "around here." I can't help but wonder about the seafood that is imported from places like Indonesia, where we think of white sand and palm trees, but where they have no water quality standards whatsoever. Probably no worse than here anyway.
I don't know if its the PCB's, kepone, mercury, or bacteriologic, but James River oysters are a real delicacy and I make dam sure to get my hands on a bag every holiday season.

Roll Tide (Captain)

After seeing your eating habits I am pretty sure you are not going to pass up on fish dinner no matter where it comes from.

exactly! its funny to ride up and down the E-River and see crab pots all over the place....mmmmmmmmmm yummy.

Me for one I will continue to eat fish out of there after reading a articale in the paper that said how much you actualy have to eat to have a chace of getting sick it wasnt worht worring about unless you eat fish every day for 5 years straight consuming more than 18oz at a sittin 3 meals a day. Thats all fine I tell you nobody should fish there this winter I will enjoy the place all by myself.

hey hey hey, you better be calling me too you know!

Yeah!! Stay away !!! That place is full of SPOOKS!!!!

V20 (cabin boy)

It is good to see you are finally gracing us with your vast knowledge of angling and of myself. I hope you do not make this your first and only post. It is so sad when someone spends all that time creating a login and waiting a whole year to make one post and it only describes me eating.

Eric

[quote=jsuperjeff,Sep 27 2006, 09:12 PM][quote=jimbob,Sep 26 2006, 01:27 PM]Me for one I will continue to eat fish out of there after reading a articale in the paper that said how much you actualy have to eat to have a chace of getting sick it wasnt worht worring about unless you eat fish every day for 5 years straight consuming more than 18oz at a sittin 3 meals a day. Thats all fine I tell you nobody should fish there this winter I will enjoy the place all by myself.
[/quote]



Yeah!! Stay away !!! That place is full of SPOOKS!!!!

[/quote]


On second thought Ill go and fish there and eat the guts, scales and all.

I aint scared, ive had croaker sashimi. What does not kill you will only make you stronger.

Eric

I like a little poison on my fish -- adds flavor.

Some of the same place people talk about catching have been taged there and I have caught them in the ditch like a puppy drum from rudee and trout from slag pile and another drum from hrbt so make the call for yourself but dont act snoby about a place you never fished

Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way Jimmy. Your right Im sure those fish are the same ones you catch in other fishing hotspots. They are not born and raised in the hot ditch.



Eric

Hello all, thanks for all of the great input once again. After reading over everything I thing that it is fair to say that it isn't going to kill you. I have always enjoyed eating the smaller keepers and it seems that they are probably the best bet for eating.....blackened...with some spicy red beans and rice and collard greens! To DIE for!